The Europe In Synch Podcast

EP09: Jen Malone (Black & White Music) - From Reality TV To Emmy Nominee, It's Always About The Director's Vision.

• Europe In Synch • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Welcome to episode nine of the Europe In Synch podcast.

This time we are talking with Jen Malone, founder of Black & White Music, an all-female, full-service music supervision company based in Los Angeles.

We hear about Jen's remarkable journey from a burnt-out publicist in Boston to becoming a top-tier music supervisor in Los Angeles. We discover how her strategic networking and hands-on experience in reality TV laid the foundation for her breakthrough in scripted television with shows like "Baskets" and "Atlanta." 
Jen reveals the relentless drive and collaborative spirit that have propelled her career, offering a fascinating glimpse into the mechanics behind mega-hit series like "Euphoria" and "Wednesday." 

We explore the evolving role of music supervision, how technology has made music more accessible, and the importance of educating filmmakers and producers on music costs and budgets. 

From balancing creativity with administrative tasks to the emotional highs of Emmy recognition, Jen’s story is one of gratitude and teamwork, with an unswerving aim to bring directors' visions to life with passion and creativity.

We recorded this conversation at the Hamburger Ding in during Reeperbahn Festival, Hamburg on 18.09.2024.

We hope you enjoy the episode and thank you for listening!

Find out more about our guest:

Selected Projects mentioned in the episode:


If you have comments about this episode - or have questions, ideas, requests, recommendations, or general feedback, feel free to contact us at feedback@europeinsynch.net.

Europe In Synch is created, managed, promoted, and driven by several European organizations and companies and is a truly cross-border collaboration.
The goals are to bring together professionals from the music sector with decision-makers from film & advertising to provide a real-life, hands-on, learning experience, and to promote European music in the complex field of synchronization, through communication, knowledge-building and networking via focused mentoring and peer training sessions.


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Intro/Outro music is an instrumental edit of "Gimme" by Daffodils.
They're on Soundcloud.

Europe In Synch is co-funded by the European Commission.

This podcast is a SuperSwell production.

Paul Cheetham

Welcome to the Europe in Synch podcast. We've come to Reeperbahn Festival in Hamburg to meet our guest. Today we're with Jen Malone of Black and White Music. Jen is a phenomenon of the music supervision world, with hit show after hit show already under her belt, so we're going to try to find out a bit more about how she worked herself into this position and how she's managing all of that success.

Paul Cheetham

Hello Jen, thanks for joining us.

Jen Malone

Hello, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Paul Cheetham

You're very welcome. As I already said, you're the founder of Black and White Music, which is an all-female music supervision company, and you've been responsible for the music in an incredible run of hit TV shows, such as Atlanta, Euphoria, Wednesday and several others that we'll probably mention. But how did you get into the world of music supervision in the first place?

Jen Malone

So this is my second career. I was a publicist for bands for years when I was living in Boston and then just got to a place where I just didn't want to do it anymore. I've always been very focused. I always knew exactly what I wanted and how to get there. But what publicists do is so hard and it's such a grind. I was just really burnt out and I didn't know what I wanted to do and so I was in Boston in a bad spot.

Jen Malone

To be honest, it was a very dark period and I saw Iron man and the music supervisor credit rolled by after that ACDC placement and I was just like I want to do that. So I just packed up my car and my clothes and I just moved out to Los Angeles and I just did so much research who are the supervisors? What shows did they do? Who their agents were, reading every interview about them, reaching out and trying to get meetings and I ended up going to an event where, very serendipitously, I met Dave Jordan, who does all of Marvel films, and we totally hit it off and I just told him that I wanted to intern for him and he was like why would you want to intern? You've had this career, you've worked with big artists, I said, because nobody's going to pay me to do something I don't know how to do. This is a business. You have to start at the bottom and I am willing to do that. That's just how it works. So he was like start tomorrow. So I immediately got an internship with him. I was still taking meetings and just meeting anybody that would meet with me. That's another kind of rule is always take the meeting.

Jen Malone

And then somebody posted on an email news group of women in the music industry that MTV was looking for interns in their supervision department. So I went in for the interview and I ended up interning for three days and then I got a job as a music coordinator on a VH1 show. So that's how I got into supervision. And then the first five or six years or so was in reality television, which is not necessarily sexy, but it was music supervision boot camp. You think of reality TV shows. There's music every second and I am so glad that I did that, learning so much of how it works.

Jen Malone

And then how I got into scripted was I reconnected with a friend from Boston, Caitlin, who said can you help me out with this one show. Can you help me clear a song? I said yeah, of course. And then she said okay, can you be our music supervisor? And that show was baskets. So I did that and then afterwards Caitlin called me and said I'm doing another show. I don't have a lot of money to pay you. It could be really hard. It's a lot of hip hop, it's going to be all mixtapes, it's with Donald Glover. And I said I'm in and that was Atlanta. And then my life kind of changed from there and my phone started ringing a lot and there were projects and people that I wanted to work with. And then obviously euphoria happened and my life really changed. So I ended up bringing a coordinator on and then a co supervisor. And so here we are, with me and four incredible women.

Paul Cheetham

Wow, that's quite a story. It's remarkable that you could pivot like that as well and set sail on an even more successful journey into a second career, as you called it. But what attributes does it take to pull something like that off in the way that you have?

Jen Malone

I think that's just me. That's just always who I've been. When I was in college I just wanted to start working. I enjoyed school but I was just so excited to work. I just know what I want, figure out the best way to get there, who are the decision makers, and then I just kind of go for it. Even now, with the shows that I work on, like The Offer, for example, which is the story of the making of the Godfather I love that show so much, but when I read it I mean I'm Italian, so I had to work on it and I called the studio. I said, look, please get me in for a meeting, just please. So when I see something that I want to work on, I just kind of go for it. I'm always on the trades seeing what shows are getting greenlit and going after them. I'm lucky now that I do have an agent so he can kind of help me set up those meetings.

Becoming Hot Property

Paul Cheetham

Oh, that's cool, but how does it feel to become Hot Property yourself thanks to such a successful series of projects like this?

Jen Malone

Well, music is just a part of these shows. Euphoria wouldn't be Euphoria without everything from Donnie's makeup to Heidi's costumes, to Marcel's cinematography to Zendaya Same thing for Wednesday. You have Tim Burton. Marcel's Cinematography to Zendaya Same thing for Wednesday. You have Tim Burton. Forget it, that's nothing to do with me. It's Tim fucking Burton. So I am in a position where I'm very lucky and I know that sounds very trite when it's like, oh, I'm blessed, but I'm really lucky that I have been given these opportunities to work on these incredible shows, but also to be able to build my team, who are amazing, and these four women being able to share those credits with them and just work with them. So it's really not about me, and I think music supervision is also very much a collaboration. Paint it Black in Wednesday that was scripted in from day one. That's the song that they wanted. So sometimes there's stuff that's scripted in.

Paul Cheetham

Could you expand on that, talking about songs that are scripted in versus ideas that you come up with yourself?

Jen Malone

Yeah, I mean writers, directors, showrunners most of them listen to music while they're writing and music really inspires them, so they'll have a character playlist or whatever. So for Euphoria, for example, with Cal it was episode three In Excess was scripted in. Sam wanted In Excess for the Cal moments, and then the editor, Laura on that episode, and myself were able to like flesh out the rest of that with. You know, the new wave, dark wave kind of bands Late 80s, early 90s, which is my sweet spot. So sometimes somebody will script in a song that is just a placeholder. So we had a script.

Jen Malone

It's like is this the song that you want? Are you open to alts? Sometimes it's a song that just can't be cleared or it's too expensive. So we have to find alts that fit the scene and the director approves, Because at the end of the day, music supervisors, we have to give options. We are not picking the song. It's not about us. So we're going to give five or six songs and then the editor will cut them into the scene and then show the director and our producer showrunners and then they pick the song or they'll come back and say you know what, let's go in a different direction. So you could go back and forth, but it's up to them to choose. It's their story to tell.

Jen Malone

We work a lot with the picture editors, who live and breathe these shows, so sometimes they have ideas and we'll get a cut and be like, oh, that's an interesting choice. I never would have thought about it. It's brilliant. And then we clear it and make sure we can afford it. So that's what I mean by it's a collaboration. I mean, like Megan Thee Stallion in Euphoria, Laura Less in season two of Euphoria and the Cramps were like. Those were songs where I was just like I feel very strongly about this. I think this is the winner, Trust me, and all of those moments really worked out. So, yeah, it's not about us.

Paul Cheetham

I think everyone seems to have a slightly different angle on what a music supervisor actually does. Perhaps there's also a misconception that your job just involves hanging out watching TV and films and listening to cool music the whole time. But what's the reality from your point of view?

Jen Malone

Well, I think music supervision is one of the most misunderstood jobs in the industry. I don't think people really realize what we do on a daily basis working on a TV show or a film, and I love telling people. First and foremost, one thing that people don't realize is that we start at the script stage. So, as they're shooting, we are actively reading scripts, making sure there's music elements that need to be sorted out before we shoot. So we have to work within production as well as working in post-production at the same time, because, as they're shooting, the editors are getting the dailies and they're starting to put the episodes together, and then they're asking for music and really anything and everything that can be scripted in that has anything to do with music. That's a music supervisor, and we're on a show until the final episode is delivered. And then, of course, there's clearances. The first piece of advice I ever got when I started in this business is learn how to do your own clearance. So anybody that wants to be a music supervisor, there you go.

Jen Malone

So we're making sure we get all the rights. We have to manage the budget. We have to work with the music editor to make sure they have all of the assets. We are working with the editors every single day. I need a song here, I need a song there. Here's some options. Really, the only thing we don't do is create the score. Sometimes the music supervisor will come on board to kind of fix problems of production. We don't need a supervisor and then all of a sudden you don't need one until you need one. So I mean, that's just an overview of what we're in charge of and when approaching a new project?

Paul Cheetham

how do you ensure your position as music supervisor is quickly and easily established within the production?

Jen Malone

I think when we have our first production call with all of the different departments, it's very much. We know how to do this. We know how to do it right. I'm going to make your lives easy because I know how to streamline this, so just let me drive and I just want to do what I need to do to make this shoot as painless, as stress-free as possible from when they're on set, and just fulfill the director's vision. I've done it so many times that I have a flow and I have my people who get it done. But that's the job.

Paul Cheetham

A couple of things about Euphoria. It's well known for having so much music packed into every episode. I think there's one episode that includes about 30 tracks 37. About 30 tracks 37. 37. Wow, so much music. In another podcast I did, the person I was talking with referenced Euphoria as the new pinnacle of the industry and a game changer in the world of music supervision, which is quite something. But is that how it feels to you?

Jen Malone

I do think that. Yeah, I do think it changed the landscape, because every other show I've ever done, or all of my friends who work on shows, everybody's just saying we want it to sound like Euphoria, which is very hard to replicate. But then for Wednesday too, I get calls and it's like so we want this to be our viral moment. It's like you can't, you don't plan these things, moment, you don't plan these things. In the same way that the OC changed the game and then Grey's Anatomy changed the game, then I think Euphoria then changed it again, which was nothing that we set out to do, it just kind of happened.

Paul Cheetham

Yeah, the OC is an interesting example. I remember how much that was admired by labels and artist managers over here for featuring a lot of music by relatively new artists that came from all different kinds of places. Is it still the norm for impactful US TV shows to include music by lesser known acts from smaller, less obvious markets?

Jen Malone

Well, I think it depends on the show and the sound of the show and what the show needs. But I think one of the reasons why music supervision is such a cool thing right now is accessibility. People can Shazam songs and know exactly what's in the show within 10 seconds, and then there is a lot of times where they'll go and they'll add it to their playlist. Every show we have to do a playlist of all the songs that are in the show to go to the DSPs. So on that level, with accessibility for our audience to dig into the music, it's also an accessibility of anybody can send music, or I can find music from any place. Technology obviously has helped that, but you never know where and when you're going to need music from a part of the world. So that's one of the reasons why I kind of love coming to these conferences and just meeting people and other music supervisors, cause sometimes in LA we're very much in our own bubble. No, there's more of us out there.

Paul Cheetham

I mean you come from a place where music supervision is well-established In other parts of the world. It's not quite the same. Supervisors don't tend to have the same power of input and, in some cases, perhaps not treated as such an essential part of the process. Do you feel an affinity with these supervisors when it comes to wanting to help increase the value of music within the production process?

Jen Malone

Absolutely. I give a lot of very unsolicited advice. They need to pay you more. Basically is what I try to get across. But I enjoy hearing not about their problems but interesting challenges that happen with them and how they would solve it or just how it works in different markets. So I try to help empower them and I guess I'd give a lot of very unsolicited advice and just learn from them and just create this network so that when I need to find a song I have somebody to call. I got a guy. You want a person in every market.

Paul Cheetham

But how does it differ then, working with people in other markets? Do you ever get frustrated because they don't have the same level of understanding of the business, perhaps, as maybe they do in LA, for example?

Jen Malone

I think people don't understand the time frame. So a lot of times in the summer when you're working on a show and somebody tells you oh, I have to go to the Europe office, I have to go to the Sweden office, we definitely have to look at that sink and see when our deadline is. Because my husband is Swedish so I can say this. But Sweden takes off the whole month of July. Nobody works. So how am I supposed to clear a song? And at the end of the day, again coming back to money, because this is a business, I just want to give you money, sweden songwriter. I just want to give you money, but I need to know now. So I think people don't understand the timelines. I think there's a miseducation about fees and how it works. People think just because I'm in LA, they're going to get 50 grand to put their song in the show. That's not the case at all. Music budgets are shrinking in the States, especially between COVID and the strike from last year. The industry is not doing too hot.

Paul Cheetham

One of the things that Europe in Sync is working on is to bring together stakeholders from all disciplines within the sync industry to find the main points of disconnect and disharmony. Let's say you know to help one another understand their area of the business better, especially when trying to increase business for companies from smaller markets. Do you think this kind of approach can work and help generate better results for everyone?

Jen Malone

Well, nothing's ever going to be perfect, but I think it's just education, and music costs money, and if the director or the producer or the production company doesn't understand what that means and so they just keep doing the same thing, well then it's just going to be the same. I think we're at the point where, especially on a global scale, it's kind of like follow the money. The money comes from the producers and the studios. That's who needs to be educated on how music supervision works.

Jen Malone

I think the education aspect is so important and I think, outside of the people that are making the music and the managers and the labels and the publishers, I think it is crucial, because of where music supervision is now is crucial that we start that education process with filmmakers and directors across the board, Essentially the people that make the budgets, because the end game is that the artists get paid and we get paid for our work. So I think that those are the decision makers and music is part of a production and people should know about it. There is no excuse for any executive or producer or director or showrunner to say why is Lady Gaga so expensive? There's no excuse. My mother knows Lady Gaga is going to be expensive. There's no excuse for that now, especially not with where music supervision is and people saying we want the show to sound like Euphoria or Wednesday.

Paul Cheetham

It's quite a bizarre thing not to be aware of, in my opinion. But talking about budgets though, how do financial limitations influence creative decisions? Are your ideas affected negatively by these smaller or restricted budgets?

Jen Malone

Well, if you can't afford a song, you can't use it. That's pretty much it. And when I'm pitching music I know what my budget is and sometimes I have to use production music libraries, who always have great things. They're great for opera or jazz, trios or just stuff that you kind of need in the background. But then there's indie artists. But it's very simple If you can't afford it, you can't use it.

Paul Cheetham

But does it force you then into being more creative, in a way? Does it make you have to think of approaches that are perhaps cheaper, but maybe even more effective and interesting actually?

Hunting for hidden gems

Jen Malone

Absolutely, especially with vintage. I love doing that with vintage because I'm so lucky that I have so many people who have incredible vintage catalogs that are easy, one stop and will work with me with a very limited budget. And sometimes it's better because it's just some lost gem from a label that was in existence in the 60s or whatever. So you have to get very creative. It's a puzzle. It's a big puzzle.

Paul Cheetham

And how far do you go to solve that puzzle? I read that you somehow managed to hunt down an obsolete track that was released decades ago and had only been available on a tiny label that had closed and hadn't even existed for years yeah, it was sharing cash's cover of fever.

Jen Malone

That was scripted in. So it was like sam is Sam. Is this a must have? Yes, I want this song. It's like okay. So I mean I just turned into a private detective and like a Liam Neeson kind of like I will find you and I will license your music. I have my ways. I have a very special set of talents. So, yeah, the last thing I ever want to do is tell my director or showrunner well, you can't have it, or I can't clear it, or I can't find it.

Paul Cheetham

Okay. So when that happens, how often are you left dissatisfied with the final choice when you haven't been able to clear the preferred option?

Jen Malone

I mean there's been a couple of times throughout the career, throughout all the shows they'll put in a song and.

Paul Cheetham

I'm like, really, okay, I believe in the vision. Yeah, trust the process and trust the vision. And can you watch the show later, when it's finally done and out in the world for everyone to see? Can you watch it purely as a fan or a viewer, or is that just not possible?

Jen Malone

You know, it's interesting with Euphoria, for example. I mean, my husband always loves to watch the shows. So with Euphoria, when I'm getting cut and I'm watching the episode and putting songs to picture and all of that, I'm watching for a very specific purpose. I am making sure that the scene description that I cleared the song matches exactly what's happening on screen, because that's part of clearing music and I just need to make sure that that's correct. I'm watching the show not for story or character. I'm watching the show for a very specific reason. So then when the show airs, then I'm watching it as a fan, but then I also have heart palpitations. Oh my God, did I clear this song? Did I forget this?

Paul Cheetham

Do you ruin it for your husband by telling him what music is about to come up in a minute? No, he hates spoilers. Good, okay, there was a follow-up point about euphoria I didn't make earlier. We said that in one particular episode there were as many as 37 pieces of music to clear for one episode. Do you remember how many of those tracks were scripted in, or do you recall how much difficulty was involved in sorting so many clearances?

Jen Malone

I mean it's all kind of a blur. I don't remember. I mean I remember just doing it. You just become a machine and you just do it. I had Hayley, one of my girls, on clearance. Whitney was with me on that season, thank God. But I don't, I don't remember. I mean I just it was just a lot of music, I don't. I don't think anything was scripted in.

Paul Cheetham

Okay Then what did it feel like when you got the brief and you realized how many pieces of music had to be cleared? Did you fly into a panic? I almost threw up yeah, how many pieces of music had to be cleared.

Jen Malone

Did you fly into a panic? I almost threw up yeah, cause I got the continuity and it was like one page. Oh my God, oh my God, okay, I didn't think that they were going to use all of this that I sent. Yeah, you just kind of yeah, it was hard.

Paul Cheetham

Right. Is there another example, then, where you can talk about any difficulties you had clearing particular music?

Jen Malone

Well, we do the show. It's called Reasonable Doubt, it's on Hulu and it's a very hip hop centric show and there was a lot of music that couldn't be cleared because of either split disputes or you can find a writer, or there was a lot, a lot, a lot of a lot of songs that couldn't be cleared from the nineties and eighties. Hip hop song. Atlanta is usually pretty tough as well, but you know hip hop. I think it's kind of the worst because you'll have.

Jen Malone

I think our record is like 22 writers that we've had to clear one song. It was something ridiculous like that. And then we saw we were like okay, well, and I have to get on the phone with management, be like where is this guy that has 1%, or you're just emailing somebody. And again it just comes down to and this is for all the copyright owners, I just want to give you money. So reply, check your email Bands, put your contact information somewhere, because otherwise how are we supposed to find you and give you money? This is your business. So that gets me very, very frustrated.

Tips for starting out in music supervision

Paul Cheetham

And when splits aren't sorted and the song is three years old or something, or 10 years old, I'm like how is this possible, right, okay, so anyone wanting to become a supervisor is unlikely to take the same path that you took, but what further advice would you give to someone trying to get started?

Jen Malone

Learn how to do your own clearance, learn that process and I think that there's a lot of conferences and workshops and interviews and things online to not necessarily taking a full class Like I had somebody it was even in the States. I can get my master's in music supervision and I'm like, why would you? Being in school is not going to teach you how to deal with a crazy showrunner or how to deal with a choreographer or how to clear this song or how to talk to a label. You're not going to learn that in a classroom going out and doing it or in a new market where there aren't any music supervisors. I mean, you're going to learn trial by fire, but you can work for a studio and those jobs are very hard to come by. Or you work for an independent, like me. Just get the experience, get the knowledge, understand that this is a business. Don't come in thinking that you have the coolest taste in music and you're going to get a job, because it's not about you.

Paul Cheetham

You have the coolest taste in music and you're going to get a job, because it's not about you. You said earlier that the first lesson you learned was to do your own clearances, and you've just offered that now as your first piece of advice that you give to others. What's the importance of that?

Jen Malone

If you can't clear a song, you can't use it.

Paul Cheetham

So you mean, as opposed to letting someone else do the clearances or hiring someone yourself to do it on your behalf?

Jen Malone

We get paid so little and then I would have to pay somebody to do my clearance. That's half my paycheck or a quarter of my paycheck.

Paul Cheetham

I see.

Jen Malone

So if you do it yourself and you keep it in-house, then it's more work, but also it just makes you such a stronger music supervisor to understand how clearance works, how fees work, how to bring something in budget. You create those relationships with the labels and publishers. It's a lot of relationship building and maintaining.

Paul Cheetham

And how important has that relationship building been throughout your career and how does it help you currently?

Jen Malone

Well, because I'm clearing so much music, I have great relationships with everybody that I work with on the other side all of the majors, all the indies. I just have really good relationships where they know that I'm not screwing around, they know that I'm working my best with integrity and professionalism and doing this for so long and working with the same people. We just have a really strong relationship. And when I know that I need to clear a Dolly Parton song, well, I have to come with script pages, I have to come with a note from the director, I have to come with a nice little package, and so I do that. So it's just relationship building and management and I mean I think that that's this whole job as well is understand that it's all relationships.

The impact of streamers, strikes, and AI

Paul Cheetham

Right. The advent of streaming platforms must have changed the business completely. Were you involved in music supervision before the rise of Hulu and Netflix, or around the same time?

Jen Malone

Yes, I almost want to say it was just Netflix when I started, but it's definitely changed, especially in episode orders, meaning how many episodes. So we're coming from broadcast TV where there's 22 episodes in a season, or you have the premium, like HBO, that will have usually 12 episodes or 10, but now we're at eight episodes. Like Wednesday, Euphoria is eight episodes, but it takes longer to do eight episodes than it does to do 22 episodes. So I think streaming has definitely changed the game. I think streaming has allowed for more content, more interesting content.

Paul Cheetham

And more global.

Jen Malone

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The landscape is very different now in film and television than it was almost like a year ago before the strikes. I think the strikes changed a lot and it's still not the way it was. It's never going to be the way it was. Was it like 2021?

Jen Malone

I had the most amazing year. I did so many shows and then it just started tapering off and last year I would have done double the amount of shows, but with the strike, none of those shows could finish. It's not a good state of the industry. Things aren't getting greenlit as often as they have been. There's a lot of people out of work, so I think the streamers changed the game. Streamers also changed the game for the unions and, with AI and streaming residuals, all of that culminated with the strike and that was very, very, very, very tough, very bad for the industry as a whole. So I think everything has changed now, like the whole broadcast streaming films to a certain extent, have changed now.

Jen Malone

And how do you feel about this post-COVID, post-strike? Ai shaped future music supervisors, so I'm always hustling regardless, but AI is definitely scary. I don't think AI can necessarily replace supervisors, and definitely not music clearance, because if fucking ChatGPG can clear Travis Scott's sicko mode great, then I'm fine to retire, because that song is virtually unclearable For musicians and especially production music libraries. I would be very concerned. We're a little bit far away from it, but I think we're closer than we think. But the content, especially the content that I work on, the studios, especially the music departments, they're always going to fight for us using quote real music. I'm never going to use something that AI generated.

Paul Cheetham

But I think there's still a lack of understanding of what AI is already capable of when it comes to music creation and a lot of other creative content creation. It's very real.

Jen Malone

Yeah, it's very real. I mean not only for music, but again for actors and performers and writers. It's all we heard about last year during the strike.

Moments of satisfaction

Paul Cheetham

Yeah, worrying stuff actually, but trying to be a bit more positive then Well, I hope you find it a bit more of a positive thing. But what are the things that give you most satisfaction during, or especially once you've completed a project?

Jen Malone

I think, just where there's no issues and everybody's just really happy Seeing a director happy, seeing the audience happy, watching the Wednesday dance go viral was weird and exciting. When I clear song, like when I got that sharing cash and I found that label, I was so excited and so happy. I think creating new music which I don't get to do enough of, yeah, I mean just finishing a show and having it be out there and still being alive, it's always a good feeling.

Paul Cheetham

What do you mean when you said that you don't get enough time to create music, though?

Jen Malone

I deal mostly with pre-existing music, but sometimes the song needs to be created for a scene to fit a character, or we want a special cover made of something. I'd love to do more of that, but I'm just dealing with mostly pre-existing music.

Paul Cheetham

Right, but do you feel like you get a chance to be creative enough, or is there too much admin work and other things that get in the way of you being satisfied how creative you can be in the job?

Jen Malone

I mean it is a balance. I think because of my team it helps with that balance. We divide and conquer Hayley's going to handle the clearances, Sarah's going to do these library searches, Whitney and I are going to split up these and then we pick the best ones and we send those to the showrunner.

Paul Cheetham

Can I ask you how important, if at all, is it to you that you receive recognition from your peers? I mean, you've had several Emmy nominations. Now you actually flew here from the Emmys, which feels pretty wild. But how on earth does it feel to get this industry endorsement of your work to such a high level?

Jen Malone

I mean it's surreal. The job that I had before I moved out here, when I was kind of going through my dark period, I was a dishwasher at a cafe. So to go from a dishwasher to going last week to the Emmys for the fourth time was just it's bizarre, it's unreal and I don't know man, it's so weird.

Paul Cheetham

It must be quite emotional too, it is. From listening to you, it sounds like your process is quite intense and that you never really stop to think too much about what you're doing or why you're doing it. But these must be the moments of quiet where you get to think, wow, I've achieved what I set out to do. But then you clearly don't rest on your laurels either.

Jen Malone

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it is very emotional. There's a lot of pressure. I'm not going to lie with that. You know Wednesday season two and Euphoria season three and all of that. It's a lot to live up to and pressure's on, but I can't think too much about it because then I get my own head. It's just very much. I think again, kind of just staying in a place of gratitude and being really grateful for the chances that I've had. I mean, I always talk about Caitlin, who gave me that job at Baskets and she changed my life and yeah, it's just, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy coming from being a publicist and then I was a dishwasher and I was a 30-year-old intern with a bunch of college kids. So yeah, it's very emotional, it's very surreal, but I am very proud and I've worked my ass off. I came out here I did not know anybody and I knew nothing about making television. I didn't know what an editor did. I didn't know anything. So I truly started from the absolute bottom and I'm very proud of that.

Paul Cheetham

Yeah, you should be. It's very impressive, thank you, but regarding the subject of pressure that you just mentioned there and having to live up to your previous successes, I can imagine that being quite difficult. How do you handle that?

Jen Malone

I try not to think too much about it. Again, it's not me, it's the show and it's again the director and the showrunner. It's their vision. I'm giving options, I am doing what I can to fulfill the director's vision, and sometimes showrunners are a little bit insecure about how they describe music or what they want, and so my job is just to be encouraging, and a lot of times, things that they'll say I'll be able to translate that myself. But I think we all feel that for the subsequent seasons it's pressure for all of us, but we just have to serve the story and just do what we do. I just want people to feel something when they watch the show and I just want to fulfill the director's vision.

Paul Cheetham

So it's a collective success and a shared responsibility really.

Jen Malone

Yeah, I think we all feel it. We don't talk about it. It's like don't talk about the pressure, don't talk about it, but just do your best work and just try not to think too much about it.

Paul Cheetham

Right, we've heard about a few of your TV projects now, but I'd like to ask about what is possibly your biggest global blockbuster, actually, which is the John Wick chapter four movie.

Jen Malone

right, yeah, I don't do a lot of films because it kind of takes a very long time and I like decisions to be made and I like the speed at which TV moves. But when I got the call about doing John Wick Chapter 4, I kind of freaked out because I'm a huge fan of the franchise. So I met with Chad and we just hit it off and got the job and it was so much fun to work on that and we got to do some really, really, really cool things. In the third act. It takes place in Paris. We had Justice and Gustafelstein and I was just kind of like what if we ask them if they have any remixes, or what if they would just do something special for John Wick? I sent the request and I immediately got the approvals back, being like everybody is such a fan. So yes, because normally it'll take a while because you have to go to the France offices, and so I had a meeting with them and I was like we'd love for you guys to do a remix, or we'll send you the scene and maybe you can use your stems to make something custom for us. And they were both like we'd love to, and they were both like we'd love to, and so in John Wick we have custom remixes, custom edits for both of those songs and that was just so cool and it was so easy. It was sometimes, when things are easy, you're like wait a minute, why is this so easy? But it's because John Wick is such a well-known IP, so that one was just super fun. And Chad is great. He's the best and I love working for him. But yeah, the craziest thing is when I'm in a plane and I saw people watching John Wick. That was bizarre and I definitely sometimes will watch it and then pause it when it has my credit and take a picture and send it to my mom.

Paul Cheetham

That's great. That's nice, Jen. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. It's been wonderful to meet you and to hear about some of your brilliant work and your journey so far. Congratulations with it and thank you.

Jen Malone

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure, thank you.

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Paul Cheetham

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