EP03: Seppl Kretz (Magma Music Agency) - The Alchemy of Sound in Advertising

Welcome to Episode three of the Europe In Synch podcast.

This time we are talking with Seppl Kretz of Magma Music Agency.

Magma Music Agency is an award-winning international music agency based in Amsterdam. 
Musicians at heart, Magma works with creative agencies, directors and brands to amplify the impact of their clients vision through the primal force of music and sound, creating soundscapes to strengthen visual ideas, films and art projects.

Join Seppl Kretz, the mastermind behind Magma, as he unveils the world of music advertising. Discover the highs of successful branding, like Heineken's iconic sonic identity, and the challenges of rejection. Seppl shares the gritty reality of staying afloat in a competitive industry, shedding light on the balance between artistry and commerce. Explore the nuances of composing for ads, debunking industry myths, and the global dynamics of local markets. Learn about the time pressures and collaborative efforts shaping advertising music, along with insights on forging a fulfilling career path. Tune in for an insider's perspective on the captivating intersection of music and branding.

We recorded this conversation at De Oosterpoort during Eurosonic Noorderslag conference in Groningen on 19.01.2024.

We hope you enjoy the episode and thank you for listening!

Please note that there is a full transcription of this podcast available for you to follow while listening to the audio.

Find out more about our guest:

• Magma website: https://www.magmamusicagency.com/
• Magma on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magmamusicagency/

If you have questions, ideas, requests, recommendations, or general feedback, feel free to contact us at feedback@europeinsynch.net.

MORE INFO:

Europe In Synch is created, managed, promoted, and driven by several European organizations and companies and is a truly cross-border collaboration.
The goals are to bring together professionals from the music sector with decision-makers from film & advertising to provide a real-life, hands-on, learning experience, and to promote European music in the complex field of synchronization, through communication, knowledge-building and networking via focused mentoring and peer training sessions.

Follow Europe In Synch:

• Home: https://europeinsynch.net
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EuropeinSynch
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/europeinsynch
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/europeinsynch
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/europeinsynch

Intro/Outro music is an instrumental edit of "Gimme" by Daffodils.
They're on Soundcloud.

Europe In Synch is co-funded by the European Union.

This is a SuperSwell production for Europe In Synch...

Transcript

Paul Cheetham: 0:23

Good morning, dear listeners of the Europe in Synch Podcast. We're recording at the Eurosonic Noorderslag conference in Groningen in the Netherlands at the moment. Got a lovely guest here. We're with Seppl Kretz and you're the founder and the manager of Magma music agency. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what Magma is set up to do?

Seppl Kretz: 0:47

Yeah, definitely. So Magma is a music agency specifically for media and then - even more specific - advertising. So we work for brands and advertising agencies to help them figure out what music they should use. That can be a variety of things it can mean that we compose music for them, it can mean that we license music for them, or it can mean that we decide that no music is needed or library. It really starts always with providing that service and consultancy to a client.

Paul Cheetham: 1:18

I think it's fair to say that you, in particular, you're a leading figure in the field of music placement and advertisement. You've won awards for some of the campaigns you've done. What is some of the most successful work that you've done, d o you think?

Seppl Kretz: 1:32

Oh, most successful? I think that people might know, for instance, for a long time I've done all the music for Heineken as a brand and Heineken is a premium beer brand and the music we always had to make was always cover based. So it was always famous songs that they could sync - because they can afford it - but they want to make a cover so that it really feels like Heineken. And that was also some of my most fun work that I always love to do, because you can really give a brand, you know, a sound, but it's also, it was always a worldwide campaign, so a lot of people saw it and you see it in the movie theaters also, and so I really like that.

Paul Cheetham: 2:11

How does that feel when you have a successful campaign like that?

Seppl Kretz: 2:14

Yeah, it feels great because I work so much, I do so much projects in advertising and also a lot of it is not that great. I mean, I think the music is great and, you know, my role is the music, but then I get films that look terrible or something, so I'm not going to reshoot a film then or something. So if then you have a project where you feel the whole team, from the director to the agency, the advertising agency, is super passionate about, then it's just, you know, then it's just an incredible creative process, just like you would have if you're in a band, you know, or making music with people, and that's, to me, is the best process and what I like about that.

Paul Cheetham: 2:56

We've started off with your successes, but even as someone who's been successful, what's your hit rate in terms of landing music into campaigns versus not?

Seppl Kretz: 3:08

So I'm lucky enough that I don't pitch myself a lot. So clients come directly to me or my agency and they say, okay, we're going to do this campaign, we want you to do the music. But there's also - and I think this is what you're referring to - a lot of moments where also we as music agencies or musicians have to pitch to win or land the track. But this is much more the case for, for instance, composers or musicians that I work with, because I have to make a lot of music for one campaign, like you know, you make 10 to 15 songs and only one falls on the film. So then, yeah, you have also 14 other songs that didn't make the cut. But so I always win because you know I made all of them. But then for the composers it's quite difficult to get that hit rate up. A good composer, I would say, does one in 20 or something that he does actually then falls on the campaign. So and then you're quite a good composer.

Paul Cheetham: 4:04

That's obviously part of the business, but personally, how do you deal with that? How do you keep motivated when you know that there's only a small chance and on a daily basis that's the case.

Seppl Kretz: 4:13

Yeah, that's a super good question, because that's something also I find very important. It's something that I talk about a lot because disappointment in this industry is so big. It happens more that things don't work out and that it's not going to happen, or that your anticipation also. Now, for weeks, you keep talking about this song, they like it and the director likes it, the client likes it, but then in the end, oh, the CEO didn't like it and they bought another song. This is really something you have to change your state of mind in and just look at it day by day. Okay, I'm going to do the best music work today and then, whatever happens with that project, I don't care about. So I think you really have to be mindful of that, otherwise you're going to really burn yourself out out of disappointment.

Paul Cheetham: 4:56

Yeah, I was going to ask you about what special skills do you think you need for your work, and I guess this mindset is really essential. A bit like being an actor going for many roles over and over again, right? You've got to put up with disappointment and be self-motivated all the time. What are the talents do you think you need to have, though, other than that?

Seppl Kretz: 5:17

I think you need to have a lot of self-reflection on your own work.

Seppl Kretz: 5:20

I think that's one of the most important factors, because, in the end, what helps most in this aspect is if you judge what you made when you're done with it. So if you have made a track for a commercial and you feel you did a good job, then that's where the responsibility for you should end, because after you send it out, in advertising especially, there's so many people and so many factors that are going to have an opinion about it that it's impossible to please all these people with one track. There's going to be people that don't like it, and you hope the people that are more important than the others that they like it. But this saves a lot of disappointment because it gives you the opportunity to still grow, because if you feel like, nah, I didn't know my best work this time, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't make the cut, and then maybe you're lucky it does, but then you can improve, so the next time, okay, I'm gonna do better, and then you know you take it from there. So the self-improvement is also important.

Paul Cheetham: 6:21

Yeah, and managing expectations without losing ambition and everything as well. Yeah, well, very delicate kind of process, but can you kind of summarize or clarify pretty much everything we've been through there and just talk us through, you know, the creative and practical processes from a project starting to it finishing? What's the chain and where do you fit into the chain and who are you relying on? Can you just go through that?

Seppl Kretz: 6:48

Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's a very nice topic to talk about, because if I work on bespoke music, which means that you compose a track for advertising, which is the opposite of having a sync - a sync is existing music that gets placed under a commercial. But for bespoke, I work with a lot of singers and songwriters and musicians and to them it's really hard to understand what's the process and where do they fit in. So I always try to explain, you know, where we are in the process. So that's that's a very good question. So I'll try to explain it very clearly:

Seppl Kretz: 7:23

For me, it always starts with a brand who wants to sell a product. So that's as simple as that because it's i n advertising and can be anything, can sell a service, can sell jeans or whatever. They go to an advertising agency to come up with a campaign, how people are gonna buy this product. So that's all very corporate still. And then the advertising agency comes up with a campaign and then they are gonna brief creative people. So they're gonna go to film houses, directors and also music people. They can go directly to a composer if they feel like they need - I don't know - say Beyoncé so, we go straight to her and she has to make the track where we want to sync. Then I'm out of the picture and I'm not involved. But more often they will ask a music agency like Magma to help them see how music can help them sell their product better, to reach the target group that they're after. And then when I get in, it starts with a lot of talking with the client, starts like, okay, what is your target group? And then we do research into what does your target will listen to, what kind of music do they like, etc. And that whole process is something that that's only for us as the music agency. But then when we cross that phase so we really iron down, like okay, this is the type of music that we want, we decided, if it's a sync, or a bespoke track, now we're gonna make things or find the right song or license. And that's the moment when even more creative people come in, so the musicians and the songwriters.

Seppl Kretz: 8:56

And what's difficult - and it also circles back to your previous question about the disappointment - is that then I have to still make and create different directions of music. Because you need to try, oh, maybe the idea was nice but the execution won't be. So you have to make a vast amount of songs. We make 10 tracks, but three in this direction, three in that direction, three in that direction. And that's the process where it starts with going back and forth - send music, get feedback, send music back, get feedback until we have the song. With sync the process is a bit different because then my clients also often feel that they are more knowledgeable than on composition. So they also feel like, I think this track - you know, that they love themselves - will work. I say, no, I don't think it works, it's just your personal opinion, but I don't think it works. So it's much more difficult creatively to talk to the clients.

Paul Cheetham: 9:52

It sounds like there's a constant clash between creative people and business people and I can imagine creative people just getting frustrated and in despair at people who don't understand the creative process. So there's an amount of ego in there at that point, I guess as well? Having some of your creative music turned down it, I don't know, you can't take it personally, can you?

Seppl Kretz: 10:18

You should not take it personally but yeah, you know, artists, man, they will take it personally.

Paul Cheetham: 10:24

Okay, I was gonna ask you about other obstacles or misunderstandings that you might face.

Seppl Kretz: 10:32

In terms of misunderstandings, there's a lot of them actually in my business, yeah, especially from an artist perspective, when they look at advertising music or music from media, because to them it's a way to make money, obviously. So they feel like, oh yeah, our music should be synced because you know that this way we can pay for a tour and we can do our album. But that's the only understanding they have. They have no idea how that goes and how difficult it is and how many people are on the other side. So that's misconception one. So then I get a lot of bands walk up to me saying, here's my CD. Can you sync it to the next whatever commercial? Like yeah, I might, but you know, doesn't really work as simple as that.

Seppl Kretz: 11:15

And then the second big misconception is financially, because the stories that are out there for syncs are most of the time for very big artists. Like, recently I did a David Bowie song that goes for like a million. You know, these are big amounts of money, especially for musicians that are starting out as artists. So they think, oh yeah, you know that there's the big money, but then their music doesn't have the same value, of course, as a David Bowie track. But that's a very difficult topic to discuss with artists because they do feel like that and they feel like, yeah, but if my song could be a hit tomorrow and I say, yeah, that's true, then the value does go up for your sync as well, but at the moment it's not and it's gonna be much lower and then it becomes more of....

Seppl Kretz: 12:01

I often say that advertising is also a stage for artists, for bands, and they have to use it as that and see the opportunities also that come out of (that). I mean, if you do a whole European campaign for whatever car brand, like Mercedes, and you, as a starting band, get your song there then all of Europe hears your sound, your music, your song. They will shazam it and I've seen whole tours come out of this, you know, out of just one placement and whole careers being built out of this, but only for the people who understand that is not straight away the big money. With music it's a misconception often for the artist.

Paul Cheetham: 12:41

So you think that some artists and their representatives, or even their labels, they think there's an easy shortcut? Like, this is the way to do it. You can't get radio play as much anymore, but if you land a commercial then that kicks off all the other stuff? That's not a very healthy way of doing it.

Seppl Kretz: 12:57

No, definitely not. And mostly artists, of course, who do not have management yet and you know they're trying to find, OK, where does my career start? And then often they think that's the easiest way to start. But yeah, to me that's not the case. To me, it really starts again with just playing well live, do tonnes of shows, you know, write good songs, write a lot of songs. Just being a musician. And then it's, of course, important to be knowledgeable about the sync industry. That will help to find the right people to know. Oh, what is a music supervisor, for instance, and how do I find them and how will they work with me? That's important knowledge. But the music has to happen first. You know they have to just make and create and be an artist.

Paul Cheetham: 13:43

I talked to someone earlier who was saying how, more and more, when it comes to the artists being picked for brand association or sync deals, that the band's profile is more important perhaps than it used to be and more clients are looking for artists who have great social stats. They have TikTok presence, you know if they're not already iconic artists.

Seppl Kretz: 14:06

Yeah, 100%.

Paul Cheetham: 14:08

Is this a new thing or is this always been taken into account?

Seppl Kretz: 14:11

The scale of it is definitely a new thing, like in the past, artists and brand collaborations have been around for a long time, from when Coca-Cola did it in the 60s, but now with the whole, you know, social media, of course, but the influencer status that people have, the reach that they have, it's so difficult nowadays for a brand to reach younger audiences because there's so many platforms and channels where they are active and they're not really bound to only one thing, you know? It's not like Gen Z is only on TikTok and that's the only thing they do, so that's the only way to reach them. So then, if they can find artists who resonate already with a certain target group, yeah, then that's much more likely for the brand to say oh, we want to work with you, rather than the other band who also has a good song, but we don't know who their audience is. So, yeah, that definitely grew.

Paul Cheetham: 15:05

It makes sense though as well, in a way, I guess. So, the impact of social media viral trends is becoming more and more important. What about other technology? How does technology impact your day-to-day work? How is technology improving or changing, or what's needed for you to be able to do your job better and the people in that chain to do better? Is there new technology coming up that you think would help?

Seppl Kretz: 15:30

Yeah, that's also very interesting because nowadays this topic is becoming more and more important because of AI. Of course we talk about AI and it's mostly scary for the music creation part. Less so - yet - for my specific job it is more based on advice and consultancy, you know, and creativity on a talkative level and emotion. But for the actual music creation that we have to do, yeah, what you've seen already over the last decades is like music plugins on, called sequencers - DAWS, which is the music software you record music in, and you used to have to record every single instrument, from the piano to the drums, in a good studio. That has not been the case for the last, at least I think, 10 years or something. You now do it on your laptop, make incredible productions, big hits, cost zero money, and that, of course, is a big change that I think will just every year that we go on will be even bigger.

Seppl Kretz: 16:32

I find it a bit scary for the musicians.

Seppl Kretz: 16:36

I studied piano at the conservatory when I started, and studying piano is such a craft on itself.

Seppl Kretz: 16:43

It's such, you know, you have to put so much time in that not just, you know, the theory behind it and the playing, but also be able to understand a grand piano or the upright piano, how heavy it plays, et cetera. You need people that really invested a lot of time in that instrument but now sort of that gets taken away because of all the plugins. And then they just say, oh no, you know I don't play piano, but I play one chord and then the plugin now makes a whole arpeggio out of this and it sounds like somebody played it. And then I'm, like, it's my business. So I'm like, yeah, this is very handy because if my client calls they have a presentation in one hour and I need this, we can do it. But it's also very scary and to me as a musician, you know, hurts my heart a little bit because I'm like the craft of it is disappearing a little bit. But yeah, that's also, now I'm sounding like an old man, but that's going with the time, I guess.

Paul Cheetham: 17:34

And how do you see that going even further? Do you have to really work hard to make sure you're aware of everything that might happen in five years time, even?

Seppl Kretz: 17:44

I think about that a lot. I also find it very difficult to preempt that, but what I do see, for instance and that's, I think, the near future also. So I work mostly the music I create is very high end, premium kind of products, and that's why they come to the agency. If they don't have the money to afford that, then if we still want to help them you have to resort to library music, it's called, or stock music, and there I see a lot of changes happening with technology, because stock music is music made almost always digitally and it doesn't sound that great. That's why it's cheap.

Seppl Kretz: 18:21

You can buy for 10 euros a stock track. But nowadays there's AI software that composes music that sounds well, at least the same as what stock music sounds like. So that means now people don't even have to spend the 10 euros on a song. They just click a button that types some key words in and they get a song for free because AI made it. And then I see like, okay, so on the library side, I think already in the next three years I'm gonna see big changes, I think, and luckily I'm not on that side. But I'm happy I don't only own a music library with that type of music because, yeah, I think they are gonna be very challenged by technology and I think it will take a bit longer before it reaches me, but it might and I'm replaced with an AI.

Paul Cheetham: 19:07

Yes, lots of changes. What about this situation where a client, a brand, want a Coldplay or you mentioned Beyoncé track but they can't afford that? So, they want something that sounds like it. Does that happen a lot

Seppl Kretz: 19:25

Wow, yeah, that question sounds actually like you know a lot about sync music, because this is a very relevant topic, because this happens so often. And they have a song that they like, like the Coldplay song, and they say, yeah, how much does this cost? They have no idea, of course. So I say, yeah, okay, what's the territory, how long do you want to use it? Blah, blah, blah the terms is what it's called and then I can reach out to the right holders, the publishers, the labels. Then I will come back with a number, I figure, and say, okay, it costs this much, and they say, oh, no, that's way too expensive, we can't afford that. Yeah, but then we want to compose something that looks exactly like it, but it's not that song. But besides that, it has to be exactly that song.

Seppl Kretz: 20:04

That's terrible, because then also a Coldplay song, or Beyoncé or whatever, is a super high-end production that has, you know, they spent weeks, months making et cetera with a lot of money, and then we have to, in three days, make a song that sounds exactly like that. It's only one aspect of it, because then you go to the copyright and then the songwriting side, that it cannot in any way feel too similar to that song, because that would be copyright infringement and this is what you call sound-alikes, and that's a big word in my industry as well. Oh, we have to make a sound-alike of that song. Very dangerous this is.

Seppl Kretz: 20:43

I always say we don't do sound-alikes. So if a client comes to me and says, hey, can you do sound-alikes, and I say no, we're not that company, You're going to have to go somewhere else. But often a project turns into a sound-alike. They start off with amazing creative ideas. I say we don't do sound-alikes, but we create really original music for you. And they say, oh, we're open. And then you go on, they're not open at all and you end up with a sound-alike.

Paul Cheetham: 21:06

How do you handle that?

Seppl Kretz: 21:08

Yeah, I handle it very technically, let's say, because the moment I feel like we're getting to that territory of a sound-alike, I immediately call a musicologist, which is basically a lawyer in music who knows music theory, and I ask him what I can and cannot do. So this lawyer guy then tells me, OK, he goes very specific. Then OK, these chords you can use, these melodies you cannot do. What you can never do is impersonate the artist, like, the voice. If you'll sound like Chris Martin and people will think it's him, then you're done, You're going to be sued, You're going to lose.

Seppl Kretz: 21:44

And but it also is for the instrumental music behind it. If the hook is too much the same, even if the chords are too same with same arrangement, this could mean big trouble for you. So much so because the band then often is very rich. They can end your career with just suing you and you'll never be able to pay that money back. So I take it very technically and this is also why I always tell people I don't want to do it because it's such a dangerous thing and so uncreative.

Paul Cheetham: 22:13

Exactly. I was going to say it must be a drag for you having to, you know, you're a creative person making unique soundscapes and this is something you're, like, Oh well, this pays the rent. It doesn't get the best creative work out of you surely? But there's been a couple of high profile court cases, not in this field, but like with Ed Sheeran, for example, and I think, Just in Timberlake? Where Musicologists played a very key part in this, didn't they?

Paul Cheetham: 22:44

Is there anything else about sound-alikes that need to be said, or is that the main thing?

Seppl Kretz: 22:50

More from a composer perspective, because these type of briefings go out a lot, when I speak to composers they often ask me these questions. They say, like, what do I do when I get a briefing that asks me to make a sound-a like basically ripping off something else, but do it slightly different. Because this is also not making any composer or artist happy, you know, this type of briefing it's actually making nobody happy. Also the client in the end, because it's not going to sound exactly like that song. So they say, ok, so how can I do it? And then I say, well, two things. First of all, I would really try not to get too close, just protect yourself. The risk you're taking is actually too high. So then better to send something slightly off brief, but that you feel is original work and that you're comfortable with that they can use.

Seppl Kretz: 23:36

And then, second thing I say but if you do want to go there, then you have the song that we call a reference. You have this reference that you have to sort of rip off - a sound- alike. Then I say do first some music research, find songs, put them in a playlist that are very similar to that reference in terms of production, sound, in terms of composition, maybe, or songwriting, and then write a song that would fit into that playlist and produce it in that way as it would fit into that playlist, and then it's a different mindset than only focusing on this one song, because if you listen to that song the whole time, even if you don't want to, you're going to copy some stuff, and then in the end, because you're so zoomed in, and then two weeks later you listen and you think, oh my God, what have I made? This is terrible. I cannot. I should have never sent this, you know.

Paul Cheetham: 24:25

Talking to you, it sounds that at heart, at your core, you're a creative artist. You're a musician. Everything you do around it is almost designed to stop you being that creative artist, so you're constantly...

Seppl Kretz: 24:37

It is very true, yeah.

Paul Cheetham: 24:38

Yeah, so what made you take this path anyway? Did you find yourself in this? Did you decide to do this? How did that work for you?

Seppl Kretz: 24:46

So I when I studied music - piano, I already started playing in a lot of bands, started to perform and tour, and I did that with a lot of bands for quite some time. Ranging from indie to more psychedelic type of rock bands. At one point I had one band and we were super lucky with that that one of our songs got synced to a Super Bowl commercial and then...

Paul Cheetham: 25:09

Let me stop you. You say "super lucky". In what way? In the way tha

Seppl Kretz: 25:13

In the way that I did nothing to make that happen. So we were signed with the label. Labels get briefings all the time. We have some new bands coming up that you know that we can sync and they send our music. And then we heard like hey, you're in the running for this Super Bowl ad and we're, like, I didn't even know what a sync was and all this kind of stuff. I was like, okay, cool. And then two weeks later they said yeah, it's your song, they're gonna use it and you're gonna get money for this, and blah, blah, blah.

Seppl Kretz: 25:39

And that opened my world, you know, in a big way. It changed my life because it became my life, sync. Because then I was like, what is this? How can you make money with this music that we've made with all our passion? And the band wasn't very successful on its own, so we were trying to play gigs, you know, and nothing really worked and nobody bought the album. But here we were having a sync that made us super successful all of a sudden, and financially also, that made the album successful.

Seppl Kretz: 26:08

So this super much intrigued me and this turned into a way that I was like, okay, I want to be in this business, I want to know what that is. Also, from an education type of perspective, that I wanted to learn how to teach this also to other artists that I was around, because nobody knew about this. So I was asking all my befriended musicians do you know about this sync thing? You know, how does this work? How do I get into it? It was a lot of asking people how I would get into it and nobody knew. So I had to resort more to the music industry, as the label people, as the publishers say, if I want to do this more, if I want to do this as a job, how do I do it? And that's how I got into it and I never got out. I'm still in!

Seppl Kretz: 26:48

And one more thing that I want to add to that is - because it's very interesting what you said - is that everything that my clients asked me to do, or the whole business of it, is so anti-the-creativity and the thing that, as a musician, you want to do. So then, what really helps to me is that making sure that we don't take ourselves too seriously and that we're not curing cancer, doing anything that mega special. We're trying to sell popcorn or whatever. And with music and music we love, and sometimes the projects are great and that's the way then I look at it and I always tell musicians also don't be so hard on yourself too much, you know, it's just, be happy that you get to make music and you get also money for it. And maybe you know you get synced to something, you get more money even, and if you're very lucky, it's even a nice project that you're proud of.

Paul Cheetham: 27:38

I've heard a couple of times now that one of the problems with this creative aspect is that the ad agencies, in particular, are less likely to take risks. They're not very exciting. So, as an artist, you're trying to create something new and different all the time.

Paul Cheetham: 27:55

So that's where another conflict comes in. and from the business side. How do you get yourself in a position, or, how have you learned to be more convincing or to persuade these people who don't want to take risks that what you do is worth investing in? Have you learned any techniques, or is that even a thing?

Seppl Kretz: 28:15

It's definitely a thing. I think it's a way of looking at the business in a different way. So, for instance, if I work with a random composer here, aartist that walks around here at Eurosonic, and I will ask them did you ever work for advertising, did you ever write something? Maybe they say no, no, never did this. And if I then will ask, okay, so what do you think? What is advertising to you? Then they will come up with a very corporate answer and like not a creative one at all. They will not talk about this amazing Coca-Cola commercial that they've seen one year ago and say, I want to make music for that.

Seppl Kretz: 28:49

That rarely happens that people think that.

Seppl Kretz: 28:52

So me, as also a business owner, it starts from me in finding the right clients, and because there's so much corporate advertising out there that if those would be my clients - and I have those clients as well - but if I would only have those clients and only focus on that, then all the creativity would be gone out of my life, and so what I have to do the whole time is find clients that also do appreciate creativity and are actually good at their job and want to make original advertising.

Seppl Kretz: 29:26

But this is very rare. So this is why award things in our industry are very important, because then, you know, all the work gets challenged and, okay, what's the most original work? So I check that stuff out and I'm like, okay, yeah, those people who did that, I want to work with those people because you know, those feel like like- minded individuals that I want to make music for. So that's something that I've, you know, completely focused on that type of work and that makes it also easier to do all the work that is much less creative and that's just a part of the job, you know.

Paul Cheetham: 30:01

And that's fair enough. You know everyone has that, something that pays the bills and something that satisfies you creatively as well. Do you find that it does get easier in some way for you, the deeper you've got into it, the more successes you've had, have paths opened up for you, that, you know, maybe you get a lot more people coming to you asking for you to just deliver them some music that's guaranteed to be in projects, or you'r always having to compete still?

Seppl Kretz: 30:28

Oh yeah, so two directions then I think. So it's also from, I think what you mean also musicians, artists to me and also for me towards the clients. So, on the artist to my company side, yeah, because it's not the attention that I want, but there's a lot of what I call advertising composers in the world, and that's a type of composer who only works on music for advertising, and the problem I have with those composers is that to do that as a job, you have to be very versatile, so you have to basically be able to do every genre that exists, because, you know, every genre is used in advertising in some way, but it makes them not good at anything. So they can do everything a little bit, but nothing really great. But those are the people that are trying to find me out, you know, because they're oh yeah, I can get jobs from them, and that's what I want, because that's my business, but I don't necessarily want to work with them. So the people I want to work with is people who are at this festival, at showcase festivals, are artists that are only working on their sound, on their songs, on their artistry, and I want them to do whatever it is they're doing, and then for me for what happens to be an ad. So that's also where a lot of my expertise has to come in, because I don't even want them to know how to score to a film, I just want them to make an incredibly great song that I love and then I will ask them the material - the stems it's called, all the separate tracks, drums, guitars, and then I will make sure or my company will make sure that it fits on the film and that the brand is happy and all these things.

Seppl Kretz: 32:04

So yeah, on the artist to me side, you know, the more work I do, the more people seek me out, but it's the wrong kind of people, so it's not very useful to me. Then, between me and clients, yes, especially in advertising industry. I'm in the middle, because I'm in the music industry and in the advertising industry, which is a nice combination for me to have. But my clients are only in the advertising industry, so they watch advertising all the time, so they know every ad that goes out and they know also what's great work, what isn't great work. And the more great work I do, the more I get new clients just come up to me and say, oh man, we so much love what you did on that campaign, we want you to do, you know, work with us on this other campaign, and that's the best way for me to get clients because you have mutual respect immediately.

Paul Cheetham: 32:55

Yes, yeah, you're building a reputation for brilliant work and people want some of that. But just hitting on something you said there about your clients just completely absorbed in the advertising world, do you find, then, that there's trends constantly coming where an ad company say, well, we love that ad over there. We want to do something similar to that ad.

Seppl Kretz: 33:16

Oh yeah.

Paul Cheetham: 33:17

In terms of its look and feel and the music. So that must happen a lot where there' a copy - a look-alike rather than a sound-alike.

Seppl Kretz: 33:24

100% and what you see mostly on a global to local kind of level. So the global work that is campaigned as being aired on every, you know, in every country. A lot more money goes into that, so it's mostly much more creative work. That's also the work that gets awarded most, etc. So and then, but locally, lesser budgets. They look at that oh, we want to do something like that, but they don't have the budget to do it. A good agency can spin it, but a not so great agency will then basically copy the thing but much worse on a local level and then hope that nobody saw that it was that ad. I see it, but the normal consumer might not see it. And also jumping in on trends musically for advertising;

Seppl Kretz: 34:13

As music supervisors also between us, we always laugh about these kind of things because the advertising world is always sort of, what is it, three, four years behind on the music industry. So songs that are now hits will not regularly be the sound in advertising now - maybe a sync, but not on a wider scale. But then in three to four years then all of a sudden that will be the new sound in advertising. It's because they're also just music listeners and they're creatives. They listen to music, but they're not always on the lookout for the newest music because they have also a busy job.

Seppl Kretz: 34:50

I guess there's few that do but a lot that don't. But also very often we're stuck with the same reference for years. So then there comes this one song and then, yeah, okay, I get it 10 times in a few months for different ads. And then after two or three years I get another one, and then I'm like, man, is this song still a thing? Again, this is a reference? My God, at one point I'm also creatively drained to make another song that looks like that. So that's a trend.

Paul Cheetham: 35:22

I was talking to, somebody who focuses more on doing music and getting music into film productions rather than adverts and commercials, and the big takeaway from that was just how frustrating it is that the music element is treated like a real last thought. But you would really think that music would be taken more seriously earlier based on the fact that music in anything - any visual thing - has such a massive impact on people. Films ar made or broken based on the How do you see that in the work you doin the advertising world? The music's coming in earlier but is

Seppl Kretz: 36:11

Yeah, that's also a very good topic that That's the only part where sometimes I feel I have to educate my clients, which is very difficult to do, but they need to understand also how to get the best result in music, and obviously that would be as early as possible in a project, but that I will circle back to that in a bit. To just answer your question is that most of the time I get a briefing and I get three days or something and the film is already done and everything, and in three days it has to go on air. And they say, yeah, can you make music for this? And I'm like, yeah, yes, but you know it's not going to be the result if you gave me three weeks or something, or three months. And so I always ask them ho, what happened? You know why? Three days, yeah, don't you think it's important? Or, and then of course 'll say, no, I think it's very important.

Seppl Kretz: 37:04

But and then we have to take into account, of course, that, especially on advertising, when they start it's probably, you know, it takes a few months to make an advertising film, but every time the teams that make up such an ad always change. Like, so the music company, of course sometimes changes. The production company, directs us always. New teams have to make an ad, so then the planning is the first thing with new teams. hat gets, you know, thrown away. So they film then for, let's say, a week, but then they have to reshoot, so it takes another week because something went wrong. They don't like the actor, have to change the actor, then they have to do some color grading. They don't like this, the editing goes wrong, client isn't happy.

Seppl Kretz: 37:46

All of this happens and then they're thinking, oh yeah, but also music, but it's much too late already. It's you know, and I'm like man and it's very frustrating because I know how to do the job well and they don't give me the opportunities to do the job well. So that's where. And the sometimes, when the project is done, Icall my clients or sit with my client and say, hey, you do know what projects are coming. o what if you just inform me earlier, already, just about the idea of the film already, just so that I'm in the loop or something, so that I can help you? You know, it's not hat's what I'm doing. I'm trying to help you have a good film with great music that works with the story.

Paul Cheetham: 38:28

It seems like they're relying on your good will as an artist to never deliver anything bad that even if you've got three days, you're guaranteed to deliver something. Yeah, o maybe they're just taking advantage way too far. Yeah, sometime Do you think it's genuinely just something that they just don't consider until later? I mean, what more can be done to kind of prove to them that the more time you have and the more information you have, the better the results will be?

Seppl Kretz: 38:53

Yeah, on some level I do think that they do find it important. They do know that music is important because they're also spending budget to do it. So that is something that you can say okay, it's important to them, but in a way, how to change? hat is the difficulty. The business is very competitive, extremely competitive, especially in advertising. Everybody has to pitch. Everybody loses. You know, you have to invest a lot on projects to win the pitch. You get no money, but you still have to create music.

Seppl Kretz: 39:23

Then you lose, so you spend money and there's a lot of other companies also doing it, and this is something they know, and this is something that's not so nice of them, of course, because they know that if I say no to a two-day deadline, that they will find somebody that will do it.

Seppl Kretz: 39:40

So we shoot ourselves in the foot actually as an industry by doing it that way, and the only way that I can sometimes help myself with that is that when I have to do something in two days and I really think I can't do it well, I will tell them that I'm not gonna do it because otherwise I lose the client in general. Then they do exactly what I said they go to another company because they're not loyal at all. And then they say, yes, but they couldn't do it. So they said yes, and they completely destroyed the thing so much that they can't air. So then they come back to me and say, yeah, now you get two weeks. Oh, where did this time come from? Now we have two weeks. Yeah, because they fucked it up and we didn't make the air, so we had to extend the deadline. And please do it now w.

Paul Cheetham: 40:27

w t sounds like there's no point in trying to educate people.

Seppl Kretz: 40:31

I know exactly.

Paul Cheetham: 40:31

Because they're not learning any lessons really. But there are, you know Europea sync, who we're doing the podcast for. hey're organizing workshops and different collaborations. There are events like Euroonic and other events now that are curating panels and discussions and workshops where they're bringing in all these different stakeholders in a campaign to get them in a room and hear each other out. Surely that's going to help? These are the kind of things that are needed, because also it supports you, doesn't it? In your work if you've got other people and third parties and collectives getting together and making it obvious where these things can be improved.

Seppl Kretz: 41:04

Yo

Seppl Kretz: 41:16

I immediately have a thought about that, because music is project-based. They get a budget and the brand says, yeah, we also wante to have music because it's an ad. And my client, which would be the advertising agency, then has a certain budget for music, so they spend it on music, but it's not really their investment in music. It doesn't say anything about that. hey value it. So the onl best thing that they can do by being educated is hire a person that is a music supervisor.

Seppl Kretz: 41:46

So some agencies have a music supervisor in-house that will do nothing, like with the actual music, but they will scout the music agencies, find the right external music supervisors or composers and have actual knowledge about what process it takes to make good music for advertising, and that shows an investment that they care about music. If they hire such a person, they pay the salary of this person, and that's why I think education in that way is so important, because this might trigger them, because maybe they never thought about that. They're like, oh, we can hire a music supervisor. So, yeah, actually it's super smart and maybe they do. We have hundreds of people working already, so what's one more music supervisor?

Paul Cheetham: 42:28

Well, hopefully that message starts to get through and they start to restructure their way of thinking and just setting up projects. hat would just be a bit more win-win for everybody. Yeah, ut is there anything that you think we haven't covered, that you think should be said, or anything you want to tell about?

Seppl Kretz: 42:44

Yeah, yeah, I think, because we're here at Euroonic, I think it's nice to connect it also - a showcase festival, all about new talent, emerging talent, and for them, because I'm always looking for that talent, everybody in my business is looking for that original sound, so that we can also be proactive to clients say, hey man, I found this band. They're so incredible, their sound is so new. You're next, whatever ad you're doing, you really got to use this band. This is something that I also love to do, because I like to show that we're passionate about music, which is the case, but for a band that plays here on such a showcase festival, how do you get there? You know, how do you get to know the right music supervisors or who do you even call? A nd I think that's also an important thing to discuss and to mention and also, if they're listening to the podcast, how to do that is just to educate yourself more about advertising in that sense - or movies, .

Seppl Kretz: 43:44

And look who's behind that, and then maybe you see ads that the I've done and you feel like, oh, this is the kind of DNA this kind of person has in all the productions that he's doing and I think I will resonate with this person and that's so important that you find the right people that you resonate with. One music supervisor is also a person that you might like or might not like, and the other one you might hit it off super well with, be friends, make music and help in that way, and that's something I feel like is not treated as such, ou know it's. They really look at it as that, like we're only business people or something and we have no opinion or taste in music even and that isn't true, and they should see it as that, and then they will have a much nicer career and opportunities.

Paul Cheetham: 44:34

Yeah, good advice,a and you're proof of someone who can remain true to yourself. Yeah, be creative and still be successful. You're dealing in a difficult business, very competitive, very challenging, lots of obstacles and demands and yet rewarding at the same time. So, I'm guessing you would recommend the business to people ev ethough though it's so competitive and it would be yet another person to compete with. But

Seppl Kretz: 45:03

I'dYeah, but you need a strong stomach, though iron nerves! Hopefully you've p

Paul Cheetham: 45:10

Hop and if you've put people , then that's good. They're not right for it, that.

Seppl Kretz: 45:14

Yeah, they're not right for it! Tha

Paul Cheetham: 45:22

Thank yever so much for You've explained it beautifully, thanks.

Seppl Kretz: 45:23

No, thank you so much, great questions.